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Reaction to records request a bit bafflingPosted Monday, September 10, 2012, at 1:48 PM
The reaction by some that White River Valley School Corporation has spent more than $9,400 to date complying to a series of Public Records requests that have been lawfully submitted under the Indiana Access to Public Records Act by the Save Our Schools (SOS) organization is a bit baffling.
Public records requests are legal and necessary to ensure that public agencies, like school boards, are conducting the public's business as they should ---- within the law and transparent. It bothers me that some in our communities have vilified the SOS group's members for making the requests in the first place. The SOS members are not the bad guys here. They are asking for information that is available to them under Indiana law. True, records requests do cost money ---- mainly for attorney fees ---- especially when there is the potential that some of the records may contain legally confidential or personnel information. But that is why those sections of the records can be easily redacted and eliminated from what is released. The records requests are being handled on behalf of the school corporation by WRV's special school attorney, Susan Traynor Chastain, of the Indianapolis law firm of Bose McKinney & Evans LLP. WRV Superintendent Layton Wall says the attorney is being paid "about $200 an hour" for her services. Hiring outside legal counsel was a school administration/board decision. It was an option. The school board already employees the Rowe Law Firm from Linton to handle routine board/administration business. As of last Thursday night, WRV School Board President Jason Davidson announced that the cost was $9,487.75. The figure will continue to rise as the board gathers and the lawyer reviews more requested documents. The public's right to know about the operation of its representative government agencies must be preserved and not scoffed at, ridiculed or labeled as a means to hinder the agency from doing the job they were elected to do. We can debate the motives of the SOS members for making the records requests in June, but that doesn't change the law. The Indiana Access to Public Records Act states, "A fundamental philosophy of the American constitutional form of representative government is that government is the servant of the people and not their master. Accordingly, it is the public policy of the state that all persons are entitled to full and complete information regarding the affairs of government and the official acts of those who represent them as public officials and employees. Providing persons with the information is an essential function of a representative government and an integral part of the routine duties of public officials and employees, whose duty it is to provide the information." That means the school board members work for the people who hired them by voting them into office. According to the Indiana statute [IC 5-14-3] "Public Record" is defined as "any writing, paper, report, study, map, photograph, book, card, tape recording, or other material that is created, received, retained, maintained, or filed by or with a public agency and which is generated on paper, paper substitutes, photographic media, chemically based media, magnetic or machine readable media, electronically stored data, or any other material, regardless of form or characteristics. This is, unless the document is exempted by court order or the law." Among the requested documents, dating back to 2009 in some cases, which have to do with the school board's and administration's actions concerning a possible elementary school merger/building plan for Lyons and Worthington are: * All records of communication between Wall and school board members about MGT of America and the feasibility study. This includes emails, WRV School Corporation-owned cell phone text messages, faxes, and other forms of written communication from March 1, 2010 through June 6, 2012. * All emails from the corporation-owned email accounts of Wall. * A list of WRV School Corporation expenditures related to: Wall, Curriculum Director Michael Langevin, and WRV school board members for the time period March 1, 2010 through June 13, 2012. A statement of purpose of why the records are being request is not required. Any person may request public records in Indiana. So, the bottom line is the long list of records needs to be complied with in full as soon as possible. The requested records will probably be hundreds, even thousands of pages in volume, but that doesn't change the law. The school has to comply with the request, even if it costs residents hard-earned tax dollars. If you don't like that, contact your state lawmakers and ask for the law to be changed. Nick is assistant editor for the Greene County Daily World. He can be reached by telephone at 847-4487 or 1-800-947-4487 or by e-mail at schneider.nick@gmail.com. Follow Nick on Twitter @GCDWSchneider . Comments Showing most recent comments first [Show in chronological order instead] |
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This has turned into a big oh yea oh yea. I am sorry for my part in that. If there is anyway that I can help SOS get their facts they desire I will be glad to do so. I have several ideas that will cost nothing. Feel free to contact me. Jpcoleman@smithville.net. I apologize to anyone I upset. My only desire is to save our school money.
Really, John? How many board meetings have you attended lately? Not sure you have attended the same meetings everyone else did. And it's hard to believe anything from the public meeting where you asked questions. That question/answer session was orchestrated from start to finish. Dr. Wall and a couple of the board members had information readily at their fingertips. Good gracious, Dr. Wall even held up pages to answer your questions that were highlighted.
Quit stirring up trouble! I'm calling a brown flag on the play or as you say, I'm calling a spade a spade!!!
I have no knowledge that did not come from public board meetings. I would not expect anyone to trust me , I am offering a ride and to set up a meeting with the exact parties they are requesting documents from. I am only trying to save WRV a hundred thousand dollArs. All parties can get their own info from the same sources.
Seems to me what Taximom is saying is that Mr. Coleman makes a lot of controversial statements. No one knows where his rants will end up, so why should either party trust him to mediate a situation that has gone on for almost 2 years.
His questions at the board meeting were so scripted that it was ridiculous! By the way, he is incorrect. He may have posed the question to all board members, but NOT all members were given time to comment. Mr. Cundiff did not comment. The board "moved on."
He has a lot of "first hand knowledge" of the goings on of the RR. The more his motives are questioned, the more irrational his examples become and the more caps he uses. Really seems he has a fear of the RR. IF he doesn't have a fear of something coming out, maybe he should kindly butt out. Honestly, aside from the select few "regulars" who give Mr. Coleman his "atta boys", we're ALL sick of hearing from him!
Shouty capitals - nothing like starting a Thursday morning with those! Whew!
John...why should the board and/or SOS trust you as the go between person? And if it does get as you say "worst case scenario" you sure you want your hands in all that?
But John, your school of thought is that we should rely on the elected officials and the supt. that they hired, right?
WRONG, I DON'T KNOW HOW CLEAR I CAN MAKE THIS, BOTH SIDES CAN GET WHAT THEY WANT WITHOUT GIVING MONEY TO A LAWYER. BUT FOR BOTH SIDES TO GET THIS THEY WILL HAVE TO GIVE A LITTLE. SOS I WILL SET UP A MEETING WITH TERRY SPRADLIN OF CEEP. I WILL GO WITH YOU TO GRAVES PLUMBING. THEY HAD SOMEWHERE AROUND 25 DIFFERENT RECORDS REQUESTS. LETS GET THE FACTS ON A FEW OF THEM. BUT YOU CAN'T REALLY THINK REQUESTING YEARS OF EMAIL IS A GOOD IDEA
So why do they need you for this? You don't work for them, you don't have children attending WRV.
ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT ONLY PARENTS AND TEACHERS SHOULD GET INVOLVED IN THE SCHOOL?
But you volunteer to be their knight in shining armor AND donate money to stop the RR? Just seems like something doesn't add up!
I AM NOT THEIR KNIGHT, I AM TRYING TO SAVE THE SCHOOL AND SOS $100,000 http://www.gcdailyworld.com/story/173080...
I'm an average American... surely I'm not the only one who thinks your over the top involvement or wanna-be involvement doesn't ring true. Then again, maybe you are just the kindest, gentlest soul who loses many nights' sleep worrying about the predicament that WRV is in....
YOU MAY WANT TO ASK SOME THAT KNOW ME, SOME OF THE CAUSES I HAVE HELPED WITH. OR CONTACT ME AND YOU CAN FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF jpcoleman@smithville.net
and maybe you're the tooth fairy!
Either way, it doesn't matter. You can continue to stir the pot, or you can try something more positive. You get more flies with honey than vinegar. And I don't think your $5000 offer qualifies as positive, given that it was dripping with sarcasm.
IT IS A SERIOUS OFFER
Take a different, less grumpy/seathing approach, and you might find you'll get somewhere
I HAVE TRIED I HAVE SPOKEN WITH DR BUCKLEY A LOT ABOUT THIS AND ASKED HIM MANY TIMES IF WE COULD FIND A WAY TO END THIS AND GET THEM WHAT THEY WANT.
Taximom, you say that offering to be a 'knight in shining armor' only demonstrates that johnpaulcoleman has something to hide, but whether or not his offer is sincere, why would the SOS group refuse it?
If it can gain them the same information and benefit the school instead of costing it, then as johnpaulcoleman questioned 'what do they have to lose'?
Personally I wholeheartly agree with each and every statement johnpaulcoleman has made and keep wondering where common sense has gone in our society.
I'm just staying out of the arguement because I have no direct linkage to WRV and frankly I have better things to do than watch their citizens pit themselves against one another...like that's going to help anyone...students included!
But heck, I've only got 2 Master's degrees, maybe I just have no clue about anything.
Taximom - you have hit the nail on the head. Thanks!
But John, your school of thought is that we should rely on the elected officials and the supt. that they hired, right? So why do they need you for this? You don't work for them, you don't have children attending WRV.
But you volunteer to be their knight in shining armor AND donate money to stop the RR? Just seems like something doesn't add up!
I'm an average American... surely I'm not the only one who thinks your over the top involvement or wanna-be involvement doesn't ring true. Then again, maybe you are just the kindest, gentlest soul who loses many nights' sleep worrying about the predicament that WRV is in.... and maybe you're the tooth fairy!
Either way, it doesn't matter. You can continue to stir the pot, or you can try something more positive. You get more flies with honey than vinegar. And I don't think your $5000 offer qualifies as positive, given that it was dripping with sarcasm. Take a different, less grumpy/seathing approach, and you might find you'll get somewhere!
I will tell u my motivation. I care about my community. I think more people should get involved. When I see a chance for the school to save a hundred grand and SOS to get what they want, I try to make it happen. A hundred thousand dollars would be much better spent on teachers rather than lawyers. I am sorry if my involvement has upset you. It was not my intention.
Mr. Coleman,
Many people have kept quiet and watched your comments escalate. What is your personal interest in this, other than being a tax payer? You have done nothing more than stir the pot. You seem to have more in this than just a natural curiousity. Are you concerned your name will come up in the requests? Please share with us. We all want to hear more of what you have to say. It's so intriguing, never repetative, and always sooooo interesting. Never hulabaluuuuuuuuu...
Now that I have all that out of the way... Im going to say what most readers are thinking... Drone drone drone! Blah blah blah! We get it! You are upset, now stick a sock in it and call your congress people! Like the law or not, it exists. SOS acted within the law. Step off the cross, build a bridge, and get over it!!!!!!!!!
My guess is legal fees are going to be above $100,000 when this is over. Yes Rowe was, but as you know most lawyers have areas that they specialize. The attorney that they are using does this kind of law. I just think why spend that money when it all could be done easier. I have Terry Spradlin's contact info and he is very informative. Graves Plumbing is not hard to find. etc etc etc. Plus lets assume the worst case scenario, lets assume that every single request made turns up rampant theft and lies and cheating and stealing and every board member and every staff member is put in jail immediately. You then would get all new board and staff that could not have a stance any stronger than : I will not close a school unless there is no other alternative. Which is what every board member has said in public meetings.
You call it "hullabaluuuuuu" and I think others are speculating dishonesty or fluff. Just because someone says it doesn't make it true which is why the law of RR is in place, to hold the education system accountable. If everything is on the up and up then there should be nothing to worry about....right. If the money is truly an issue, donate your money toward the lawyer fees. Speaking of, was Rowe consulted on this process? Why wasn't he used?
Even more importantly, every board member when asked in a public board meeting clearly stated, they do not want to close either school and would not do so unless it was the only way to save WRV. So all of this is a lot of hullabaluuuuuuuuu
I picked it as an example. Pick another one and submit the same questions: I have done my own investigating. I spoke with Terry Spradlin Of CEEP. I spoke with management of America. I am very sure there was nothing secretive done. It would not be hard for SOS to do the same. So lets pick all the emails between Terry Spradlin and school officials. lets say you get a big stack of them.Feel free to assume something sinister or something common in them. Then ask yourself these questions:
1. Will Getting copies of these emails save Worthington school?
2. Do I really believe they would lie, cheat and steal over a few emails?
3.
4. Is this really what SOS wants to be known for?
5. Wouldn't it be easier to call Terry Spradlin and ask: "hey whats going on, can I get some facts/details?"
I understand if this is just one of your examples but why is your focus on Graves Plumbing? Nick didn't even mention that RR in his blog. I understand he's on the board and a business owner but I think there is a bigger picture here and it's all about holding people accountable for their actions and sometimes it takes an element of proof to validate that....whether that person be a business owner, school board member, superintendent or whoever....If you want to donate money, great, otherwise submit your own RR and research your own element of proof.
For the rest of you this can be looked at simply. you only need a few details. The SOS group was formed to save Worthington school from closing. LCWilhoite has said "a group has been given contradictory information". There was a board meeting where the exact amount of work done by Graves Plumbing was discussed. Exact numbers were given by Layton Wall and Andrew graves. My memory is that a very small percentage of work at WRV 10-15% was by Graves Plumbing. You now have a public document request by SOS for copies of all the receipts.
I would suggest anyone reading this ask themselves a few simple questions:
1. Will Getting copies of Graves plumbing invoices save Worthington school?
2. Do I really believe they would lie, cheat and steal over a couple of thousand dollars?
3. lets assume that Graves Plumbing billed the school for $14,000 dollars one year and when we get the invoices we find that one is fake and outright theft, they cheated us out of $100, how will this save Worthington school?
4. Is this really what SOS wants to be known for?
5. Wouldn't it be easier to walk into Graves Plumbing and ask Andrew Graves: "hey whats going on, can I get some facts/details?"
There are no records requests issued to a private company.
I NEVER SAID THERE WAS, YOU HAVE ASKED FOR THE RECEIPTS FROM GRAVES PLUMBING. YOU ASKED THE WRV SCHOOL FOR THEM.
But it is interresting all of this work has been apparently going on about a private company and a school totalling up invoices and that you (a private citizen) apparently have detailed knowledge of this all yet the group that has specifically requested that information through the propper legal channels has not received anything or even been told about it.
IT WAS DISCUSSED AT A BOARD MEETING IN THE OPEN, THATS WHERE I GOT MY INFO
That same private citizen is attempting to broker negotiations on behalf of a school, trying to bribe a private group to not follow what the law has provided for its citizens, go through a private companies file cabinet (I assume you have permission for that too)
I DO NOT HAVE ANY PERMISSION AND HAVE BROKERED NOTHING. I AM WILLING TO DONATE $5,000 TO HELP SETTLE THIS. IF YOU WOULD ATTEMPT TO DO SO IT WOULD THEM PUT THE BALL IN THEIR COURT. I AM ONLY GUESSING THAT THAT PRIVATE COMPANY IS MORE THAN WILLING TO BE OPEN AND HONEST. I WOULD SUGGEST YOU CALL MY OFFER, YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE AND AT WORSE WOULD BE IN THE SAME SPOT WITH A KIDS GROUP HAVING MORE FUNDING AND THE BOARD LOOKING FOOLISH.
...All because a group has been given contradictory information by its school's officials so it followed the law to obtain public owned information in order to find out the truth.
I AGREE LETS CLEAR THIS UP WITHOUT LEGAL FEES.
You're right, it has gotten pretty ridiculous!
SO WILL YOU TRY ONE MORE TIME AND AT WORST BE AHEAD?
There are no records requests issued to a private company.
But it is interresting all of this work has been apparently going on about a private company and a school totalling up invoices and that you (a private citizen) apparently have detailed knowledge of this all yet the group that has specifically requested that information through the propper legal channels has not received anything or even been told about it.
That same private citizen is attempting to broker negotiations on behalf of a school, trying to bribe a private group to not follow what the law has provided for its citizens, go through a private companies file cabinet (I assume you have permission for that too)...All because a group has been given contradictory information by its school's officials so it followed the law to obtain public owned information in order to find out the truth.
You're right, it has gotten pretty ridiculous!
Thank you Nick Schneider for your explanation of the definitions in the Public Access Law. Well done.
I for one appreciate our state's belief system that supports: "A fundamental philosophy of the American constitutional form of representative government is that government is the servant of the people and not their master". Even if it gets difficult and messy.
It's why I offered to go thru the receipts with them. We can save thousands on legal fees and still have the truth.
And because everything everyone says is always the truth? It's a Wikipedia world....get real!
They are complying, they are hiding nothing. I am just trying to get this done without thousands of dollars legal fees.
Let me give you an example. SOS has asked for documentation pertaining to expenses paid to Graves Plumbing. Now Graves has totaled it up and the school has totaled it up. I don't remember the exact number but it was something around 10 or 15 thousand dollars. This is out of over 100,000 spent on repairs. it's truly a non issue . However because of the request we have to copy all the receipts for a couple of years. Not only does my offer of $5k stand, I will go with you to graves plumbing and go thru receipts with you. see how ridiculous this is getting.
and if there is nothing to hide and nothing was done that shouldn't have been, then the board has no reason to not simply COMPLY!!! otherwise the appearance of being dishonest becomes apparent.
I am asking you to try it one more time. For that I will make out the check. Sorry for being unclear.
"we held several meetings this past year with various board members and Superindendant Wall where we were given various information that contradicted eachother."
We did all of that and more.
Since we already did what you suggest...Make the check out to WRV School Corp!
John
Anyone in there right mind wouldn't refuse that offer. Let's see how this turns out.
" we were given various information that contradicted eachother. Rather than enter into a public battle of name calling and pitting board member against board member against Superintendant...we sought to obtain the actual records to decern for ourselves what the information truely is."
The only option to not getting answers is not a public battle or name calling.
I'll make you an offer: drop all requests and see that the following happens: meet with those board members that you personally know plus a few others, express your concerns be transparent, work with them. Find out what it is you are seeking. Give them some time to look into your accusations. If you do this I will donate $5,000 to whatever school/kid related cause you desire. If after this process is done you are not satisfied, you can refile your requests.
The initial (9) records requests were simple, straight forward, specific and clear. They were motivated by the fact that we held several meetings this past year with various board members and Superindendant Wall where we were given various information that contradicted eachother. Rather than enter into a public battle of name calling and pitting board member against board member against Superintendant...we sought to obtain the actual records to decern for ourselves what the information truely is.
The original (9) records were denied through the use of various terms (provided to the school under the same law) such as "not reasonably particular". There were several other reasons cited but we clearly felt that none of them really applied as the schools attorney was using them. The School nor their attorney followed up or elaborated to give us any direction as to how we needed to modify or redefine our requests which is normally done to demonstrate a reasonable "good faith" effort by a public agency. As such, we were left with little choice but to expand each request in order to make them more particular and specific. This resulted in the 28 records requests that followed.
It is important to remember that these public records are an account of what happened and not what someone created after the fact. We all should know what actually happened regardless of the content. The only thing that is disheartening in this whole thing is that SOS was vilified and met with personal attacks even before the records were requested.
I have come to know several of the board members personally and they are very honorable and decent men that I have a lot of respect for and I know that all members of SOS feel the same.
My dentist is a wonderful dentist and a good person. How would you feel if because I do not like his views I decided to file a public records request to find out how much he received in the last ten years from Medicare and Medicaid as part of his dental practice? It would cost him time and money. Then after I get this info, I then make a report to here: http://www.in.gov/attorneygeneral/2807.h... In my report I say nothing slanderous or untrue, I merely say I think this needs investigated. Now please note I am only following our laws. I am doing nothing illegal. But it would be clear that I am abusing the system. It would be clear that I should not do this. So to not consider the motive and to defend the action by saying "Public records requests are legal and necessary to ensure that public agencies, like school boards, are conducting the public's business as they should ---- within the law and transparent" (Please add health care providers behind the words school boards). This would be wrong and should not be done. I would suggest, to Nick that he do a little more thinking about the motives.
Ditto Johnpaulcoleman.
Poor motives can abuse good laws.
There are laws to protect people who are injured through no fault of their own. As a society we want to protect people who are hurt and face medical bills and loss of wages when they are hurt by others. However we still vilify those that believe that spilling some hot coffee on themselves entitles them to millions of dollars.
I recently had an issue with my mortgage company due to a payment that was 'lost'. I began investigating my rights under the very good RESPA law designed to protect borrowers. Through my investigations, I discovered a series of near 'how to' manuals on the internet on how to use the law to bury your lender in requests that in some cases even led those who were at fault for failing to make payments to gain relief from their mortgage companies. While it is sad that some have fallen on hard economic times, not everyone is a victim of predetory lending and those that abuse the system for their own benefit only harm the rest of us.
There are times when public oversite of government is essential. There is no problem with the law, however it can be misused. Although I have no direct connection with WRV, through following recent news, it seems that this inquiry is not driven by a rational desire to investigate an issue, but is driven by an emotional desire to fish for any facts that may support their cause. This then results in costs that frankly are unnecessary.
"We can debate the motives of the SOS members for making the records requests in June, but that doesn't change the law. "
I guess you missed the point. It was exactly the motives that were being debated. The fact that it is the law was never in question.
So let me ask you a question Nick: Since it's the law, how would you feel if I followed you around and every time you jaywalked, or rolled thru a stop sign, or speed, I called the police on you? Would you then ignore the debate about my motivation and quote the law?